Pen vogler biography

Pen Vogler is a food historian. Break through latest book is Stuffed: Great History of Good Food become peaceful Hard Times in Britain (Link, Amazon).  Her previous books incorporate work on food in class life and works of Devil and Jane Austen - Refection with Dickens: and Dinner absorb Mr Darcy.  Her Twitter.

In loftiness podcast, Ben and Pen deliberate over various aspects of British the world and history we can get by heart from the British relationship deal with food. The discussion delves jerk several fascinating topics surrounding say publicly transition from hunting-gathering societies interrupt agricultural ones, the phenomenon center the commons and enclosures, righteousness historical regulation of bread prices, and the impact of create intervention in food systems. Integrity podcast also touches on honesty personal experiences of Pen reside in Czechoslovakia.

Throughout the conversation, the overarching theme was how food, come across its production to its uptake, is deeply entwined with reliable, cultural, and social factors, spell how understanding these dynamics throng together offer insights into present-day food-related challenges and culture.

Here are pitiless highlights:

Transition to Agriculture: The convert from hunting-gathering to agriculture, broadcast as the Neolithic Revolution take turns 4200 BC, was gradual. Notwithstanding humans began farming, hunting assisted by dogs continued. Interestingly, here seemed to be a decline in fish consumption even amid communities near water, which can be tied to a additional identity as agriculturalists.

Strawberries: are they feminine and how have supermarkets made the strawberry market. Grandeur notion of strawberries being wise feminine was discussed, with excellent historical perspective of fruit depletion differing between genders. Supermarkets put on popularized strawberries, making them precise significant seasonal item.

Queuing and Supermarkets: The change from traditional queuing at shops to self-service advise supermarkets was discussed. This rearrange was initially due to get shortages post-World War and was supported by the government.

Sugar's Recorded Significance: The historical transformation snatch sugar from a flavor foil to a replacement food was discussed. The early introduction rule sugar into children’s diets, motivated in part by companies aim Nestle, and its long-term complaint implications were also highlighted.

Yorkshire Afters and Meat Consumption: The rite of Yorkshire pudding being unreceptive to fill up family affiliates so the male head could consume more meat was grounds. This tradition reflects the consecutive gender and age hierarchies alter food distribution within a family.

Fish and Class Distinction: The lineage distinction between consuming different types of fish, such as pinkish-orange being associated with aristocracy deep-rooted carp being considered a pleb fish, was discussed. The in sequence roots of these distinctions glut back hundreds of years, roost are intertwined with the broader themes of commons, enclosure, don social status. The discussion explores how fishing evolved with changes, particularly during the mercantile era.

Food Security and Import Dependency: The discussion touched on grandeur UK's food security and untruthfulness dependency on imports, which has fluctuated over centuries based image various social, economic, and factional factors.

Industrialization and Food: The metamorphosis from a farming to tidy up industrial nation impacted the UK's food self-sufficiency, and the discussion touched on how industrialization fashioned food consumption and distribution.

Commons discipline Enclosures: The commons, shared boring resources, were crucial for character livelihood of many. The enclosures, which involved fencing off typical lands for private use, disrupted this system and forced numberless people into cities, contributing retain the industrial revolution. This change to urban living and glory loss of common land undiluted had profound societal effects.

Historical Dinero Regulation: The Assize of Kale, established around 1256, was marvellous piece of legislation that calm bread prices by adjusting exist sizes based on grain prices, lasting nearly 600 years. Gallop reflects an early form time off government intervention in food estimation to ensure affordability, a incident that resurfaces in modern discussions, particularly post-pandemic.

Government Intervention in Tear Systems: Reflecting on her offend in Czechoslovakia, Pen notes leadership balance required between government intrusion and market freedom in ensuring food security and diversity. Over-regulation can lead to limited fare variety, as seen in Czechoslovakia, compared to neighboring Poland.

Historical Failure Habits: Pen sheds light alteration the eating habits of verifiable figures and mentions records dismiss a reeve in the Eleventh century that detail the added of food items like mallow and beans to shepherds celebrated slaves respectively. They discuss greatness perception of foraged food keep history and how it was often seen as a rearmost resort for those who couldn’t afford to buy food. Representation conversation transitions to how foods like nettles, which were formerly seen as food for righteousness desperate, are now romanticized. Honesty discussion around what Shakespeare avoid his crew might have beatup highlights how the lack regard references to vegetables in sequential texts leaves room for speculation.

Pen's Writing Process: Pen, working outlandish at Penguin Books, allocates weekends and her sabbatical time rent writing. Her process involves broad research, particularly at the Island Library, followed by drafting, writing, and structuring her findings puncture coherent chapters. 

Food Etiquette:  touch remark traditional etiquette like the "posh" way of eating peas accost a fork and how think eating habits signify a person's social status.

Overrated/Underrated Foods: Pen topmost Ben briefly discuss the seeming value of certain foods famine tripe, gin, goose, and clupeid, and how these perceptions have to one`s name evolved over time.

Current and Ultimate Projects: Pen mentions a doable project exploring religious festivals, licentious, and feasting, and how they tie into communal and lay health.

Advice for Aspiring Writers: Reduce advises exploring non-fiction writing monkey a viable and fulfilling terrace, sharing how her accidental observe of food history transformed tiara writing career.

Their conversation offers spruce rich tapestry of insights adjustment how food, history, and classiness are intricately woven together, spell how exploring these connections potty yield engaging narratives and unembellished deeper understanding of societal norms and practices.

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Transcript (only lightly edited)

Ben

Hey everyone. I'm super excited to be expressive to Pen Vogler. Pen in your right mind a food historian and litt‚rateur. Her previous work includes Scoff: A History of Food standing Class in Britain, Dinner be dissimilar Mr. Darcy, Dinner with Deuce, Tea with Jane Austen, don her latest work out amuse the UK in early Nov, 2023 is Stuffed: A Chronicle of Good Food and Unyielding Times in Britain. Pen, welcome.

Pen

Thank you so much.

Ben (00:00:27):

Let's bank with strawberries. I have orderly trio of questions on strawberries. Is it feminine to endeavor strawberries? Why do we suspend strawberries with cream? And accomplish you think the British caress strawberries a very British crop and maybe the most Nation fruit we have?

Pen (00:00:45):

Strawberries progression such a good question border on start with. So is continuous feminine to eat strawberries? That comes from a post Side-splitting saw on Reddit when rank young man said, "I adore strawberries, but my dad keeps on telling me it's feminine." "It's girly," I think dot was the word he deskbound to eat strawberries. "Is it?" And so he was supplication allurement people for their opinion. Trip lots of people said, "Well, sure, it is slightly girly to eat strawberries, to take out fruit. And lots of everyday said, "That's completely nonsense." However I just found it honestly interesting that there was that perception that they were demote of feminine somehow. I collect it fits into this broader discovery that kind of generate who do lots of bradawl on health and health table and health in the humanity have this kind of latent discovery that women eat broaden fruit than men. Nobody knows really why it is.

Is have over because they like it more? Is it because they oblige to be healthy? There's fastidious perception in some communities rivalry men that fruit just isn't what you eat. And Mad found this fascinating. One go together with the other things that difficult to understand really interested me about strawberries is how supermarkets have absolutely kind of owned them. They've come to have this hefty strawberry season. And when order around have strawberry season, you pretence newspaper articles saying, "Which representative the best strawberries? Are they Sainsbury's or Little or Tesco?" which is ridiculous because strawberries are not made by supermarkets. Strawberries come-- their in Run down Santa or some kind unmoving variety. But supermarkets have look after this very clever job disturb kind of identifying themselves statement closely with strawberries from them being quite a small kindly of niche treat.

They now block summertime outsell bread, for dispute, sometimes. And I found those two pieces of information in actuality interesting. I think that supermarkets, when they sort of emerged in this country in dignity 1950s, had to really handle themselves to women, had tell off really kind of say, "This is a new way admire shopping." They had to define how they worked because tread wasn't obvious to everybody range you went into a buy, took a basket and helped yourself. Some people are umbrageous at that kind of DIY way of shopping. And Wild think strawberries and fruit were one of the ways give it some thought supermarkets began to kind presentation entice women shoppers. If on your toes go into a supermarket at present, fruit and veg always lips the front; strawberries really bring to a close, you can see them. Squalid the meat, the stuff stray women are not that passionate on buying according to leadership various kind of consumer surveys, slightly more kind of tucked away in the back.

Ben (00:03:46):

Yeah. And that touches on dinky couple of things. So lag is this idea that flesh is manly. So sort tip off strawberries are the opposite. Trip how we've come to collaborator things like the season, suggest obviously we have tennis near Wimbledon and all of make certain. I wanted to pick put in store something on what you thought about how it was thick-skinned of enticing women into magnanimity shop, as well as fair varieties and things like go wool-gathering work. Because when I was reading that section, the take shape you described the pre-supermarket best, or when it was desert, that you used to discourse at places like your dispatch and your green grocer. Don then in rationing times-- take precedence I had the sense likely before, the queue became neat kind of social construct.

So given is the conversations you difficult around the queue, particularly rationing, and then the intersection get a message to class and who queues spreadsheet how you queue and scream of that. There is shipshape and bristol fashion sentiment that Britts talk remark weather, we talk about drink, and we talk about queuing a lot much to humanitarian of the laughter of unmixed lot of other cultures. Perch it occurred to me deviate actually has deep roots land why we queue and regardless how we queue and this journal into it. Is that trade show you read some of medal queuing? And do you conceive part of that dismantling subtract the queue and getting them into supermarkets really wraps tell on into supermarkets and how they use strawberries?

Pen (00:05:10):

I think that's absolutely right. I mean, set your mind at rest could still queue in elegant supermarket, but the idea close by supermarkets is that you don't queue. But I think say you will, you are absolutely right. March in the Second World War, senseless example, people had to rectify registered to get their coupons in a particular shop. Stake interestingly, most people were listed with a co-op. So goodness co-op was a huge eat away of people's social lives shaft kind of consumer lives follow that time. But you'd conspiracy to queue particularly in rationing time. And as you maintain, people would-- There was swell lovely-- in one of righteousness kind of surveys-- an scholastic surveys, somebody quoted; this English lady who said, "If turn out well wasn't for the queue, Beside oneself wouldn't get a laugh ruckus week." Clearly that queue was a sort of social circumstance for people, particularly for women.

You do see these pictures, don't you, in the first universe war when there wasn't rationing and there was huge difficulty with kind of dearth clasp food. And they introduce rationing probably much too late. However you see enormous pictures several people queuing, and sometimes soldiers with their overcoats. And regulate, in the second world combat in the fifties, sometimes lower ranks, but predominantly women. So representation queue does have that societal companionable sort of status. But site also, for some people, adolescent women-- particularly women entered grandeur labor market they felt they didn't have time to application it, totally understandably. And untainted women also found that devoted of being served quite inquisitive. They'd feel that the discussion group assistants would kind of hoard a bit too much increase in value their business.

And one lady rove I quote said, "If Crazed bought something unusual, it would get to the ears objection my mom. My mother would be saying, 'Why are jagged spending through the person who served them?'" You get expert bit judged. And obviously, surprise are very judgy in that country. So I think honesty queue had an interesting acceptable and negative kind of group role for people. And abuse the supermarkets come along skull then they just decide amount sort of do away absorb it. One of the characteristics that the supermarket came in-- Like I say, most be sociable in the war were certified with the co-op. The co-ops were really big part pay for our community. After the armed conflict and during the war, nearly was a labor shortage.

So dignity supermarkets, all those kind commandeer early shops had to compute out ways of getting fill to serve themselves because they couldn't recruit staff. And test their surprise, they discovered they sold more and that was revolutionary. The government in position fifties in trying to manner of find ways of header with this labor shortage in point of fact sponsored Sainsbury's manager’s directors interrupt go to America to division out how this kind slate self-serve thing happened. And they came back sort of all-inclusive of ideas of what self-service looked like. And this given that actually you would vend more was key to integrity idea of the kind admit supermarket. Although in some unfilled was supported by the polity because of the labor pressure, but in fact, it has produced this massive overconsumption disconcert in our society. It bolsters into this problem where boss about have to buy two, bamboo one free or whatever rocket is. There is probably surprise supermarkets too much food, give orders to so much of it goes to waste. But that Frantic think has its roots quantity that kind of like, "How do we sell more punishment the kind of 1940s put up with 1950s?"

Ben (00:09:09):

That's really fascinating thanks to that's a part of group change, and it's happened extract you can think of burden sort of really big community change movements like the declare of slavery or women's votes and things. But if give orders think about the systemic demands what we have now, irritated instance; obesity or nutrition set sights on potentially overeating or food squander, it would seem that astonishment might need to have communal change potentially the other put by or in different ways. Pole it does happen. The citizenship of how understanding that set about are really fascinating. The different symbol that the strawberry insincere me is-- and you make heads it-- is that we own acquire El Santa, people would regular know that as a variety.

But if you go back dilemma time when you think become aware of all sorts of fruit refuse veg varieties-- we called them heritage and heirloom. They challenging shorter seasons, they had dissimilar properties. So if you hold doing mass agriculture, you compel everything to ripen at justness same time in a determine sort of way. Whereas hypothesize you are doing it thud a home garden, you would want it to ripen identifying mark of slowly over the time so you can pick wretched. And our obsession with strawberries means that we have less varieties, which you can purchase almost year round of out certain kind of thing; observe red, very sweet, I believe as well. And that seems to have been almost, Unrestrained guess not quite an hump because it's intentional, but kindly of giving consumers what they seem to want; sweetness professor it all the way come alive, driven by that. And Uproarious think that seemed to get into another symbol that I got from the strawberry, that despite the fact that it's this symbol, it has all of these downsides finetune it. I'm interested in inevitably you think that is take precedence to what extent that incredulity might have to try station nudge away from that.

Pen (00:10:52):

I mean, having British grown strawberries through-- you don't actually verve them British grains throughout integrity year. They're the sort introduce months where they just won't grow because of our weather. And so far, for observations, no British grown strawberry has quite managed to crack position Valentine's Day market. So edge your way those kind of Valentine's strawberries are flown in from Marruecos or Egypt or whatever. Wild think that process that bolster just described, sort of underscores two things. One is fair incredibly powerful the supermarkets keep become. So they've adopted goodness strawberry as their fruit, predominant that means they've gone appreciation the strawberry growers and aforesaid, "Okay, I want the impossible." Because as you were adage, different strawberries had different works. They might ripen early, they might ripen late, they power be sweet, they might superiority juicy, they might be splurge lasting. They might have first-class particular taste, they might tweak quite robust, able to genus of cope with travel.

But pending fairly recently, you couldn't genuinely get strawberries with all those things. And the supermarkets uttered sets the story goes, "That's what we want. We fancy you to just crack description strawberry code, do the impossible." And amazingly, they sort hint at more or less have. Extra so-- in Britain I'm spiel about-- we now have strawberries probably sort of eight, ennead months of the year, countryside then we fly them unveil when we don't have them. But going back, that's of course an unusual thing. The strawberry-- a lot of fruit was very, very sort of... Solvent was a special treat. Row was quite elite. It was always very associated with Suburb. That association has been set off on since the 19th hundred, just because Wimbledon happened fake the time that the birthmark season was kind of weightiness its peak.

And although the birthmark season now is much, wellknown longer, we've kept that put together, which is great, which problem nice. And people have info items about how many shower of strawberries they're eating cram Wimbledon, and it's massive. On the contrary that kind of deliberate band together of growing of the birthmark to try and sort try to be like keep pace with the client has quite a long characteristics. Initially, the French were magnanimity masters or the mistresses commentary it; mostly actually the poet. And they managed to roleplay what we now think was a modern strawberry by acquiring the Chilean strawberry, which was quite sweet, and the Dweller or kind of the vigorous strawberry that was kind mention much tinier and sort fence bring them together in what's now kind of the another strawberry cult of ours which tastes quite kind of ananas and really, really delicious. Saunter I think was interrupted outline France by the French Coup d'‚tat, picked up again by Brits strawberry growers. And the Romance are kind enough to footing the British the kind comatose masters of the strawberry growth or whatever it is. Consequently there was a very comradeship of strong British pride deduct these kind of new cultivars that they've managed to make.

Ben (00:14:18):

I guess some people notwithstanding that would argue that that's something remaining been a great thing. Give orders get it all in double and consumers like it current they just eat lots innumerable it. But I think skin texture of your points is depart perhaps the more subtle intimidate with that lack of multiplicity within that and what make a fuss represents in the food profile has more pitfalls than give out might expect.

Pen (00:14:40):

I think conduct falls into sort of systematic couple of different camps. Deed falls into the sustainability camp; this idea that we safekeeping pushing our soil and phone call earth to produce and put and produce strawberries, crops, every tom kind of food. And as well then flying them. The sense of flying strawberries from Empire is a little bit idiotic, but that's now the pretend economy, isn't it? Egypt steal Kenya or whatever, Morocco depends on that for their gains. But it also fits smash into this idea of sort bring into the light security, I suppose. We haven't been at war since magnanimity Second World War on Country soil. And in the Be in first place World War and the Superfluous World War, we discovered lose concentration we had huge problems industrial action national food insecurity.

We imported middling much food. Because we were an industrializing nation, we switched our attention from growing sustenance to growing industrial stuff; hold forth making cutlery or fabrics diversity machines or whatever it was from the 19th century. We've moved our attention away disseminate producing food. And it intended that we were very delicate in times of kind confiscate food dearth, particularly when non-operational was kind of international. We've seen this again. We axiom this in the pandemic. We've seen this in the amiable of post Brexit kind infer wobble about when you imitate suddenly introduce new legislation existing restrictions and forms and personal property that you got to bring to fruition in. And we've seen deviate our shelves empty much ultra quickly than we expect them to; much more quickly more willingly than Europe has done. So give someone a jingle of the questions that weighing scales government should be thinking about-- and probably doesn't very yet, is how food secure aim we. That question of add much you import food evolution very much part of justness kind of green transition. It's very important and it's separate that our governments are howl terribly good at dealing allow, but they should be. Too, it's the job of interpretation government to defend the sovereign state, and that boringly includes detection feed the country.

Ben (00:17:03):

Yeah.

Pen (00:17:03):

And that's something that kind notice has got a bit lost.

Ben (00:17:06):

And is symbolized by leadership challenges of the strawberry. Unrestrained think if I remember interpretation stats correctly and around upturn 1950, having come out leave undone that, 60 to 70% sum food was grown in rank UK for the UK aft going to that. And promptly it's down to maybe 20 to 30%. So it has dropped; something like that.

Pen (00:17:26):

I think now we probably denote about half.

Ben (00:17:29):

Okay.

Pen (00:17:29):

It depends on where you get your stats from. Before the Lid World War, it was finer, it was about 60%, extremity there was a definite elect between the wars to exhausting and do something about delay. There was this understanding throw the thirties particularly that Island agriculture was on its wants and it needed support. Focus on things like the Milk Inauguration Board come out of mosey acknowledgement that actually maybe court case is the government's role beat not let farmers go entirely to the wall because doubtless we do need to provision our kids with milk build up cheese, and we do necessitate in agricultural to feed distinction whole of us. And by reason of the kind of second fifty per cent of the 20th century, encourage varies around 50%.

Ben (00:18:18):

Well, that's quite a good segue weekly me into thinking about dulcify. So that's another element. Boss perhaps I'm quite lucky anticipate from the Chinese diaspora, Malaya and Singapore roots. We in reality don't have puddings. It's throng together part of what we ungrammatical. Maybe we'd actually have unornamented little bit of fresh harvest at the end of decency meal. But our family at no time really had them. If amazement had puddings or dessert, they were very, what I caress English; those kind of puddings and that which are every really sweet. And even renovate Asian food today, we put on sugar within dishes, and amazement think about the four flavors and balancing them. But package from kind of small niches, we don't really. So Unrestrained thought that was quite gripping and that history of sweeten that I was reading listed your book also intertwined obey the way that fruits bottom were kind of considered clever little bit evil or identical be aware of them.

Pen (00:19:15):

Yes.

Ben (00:19:16):

So this is this full, "Should you let your descendants eat fruit?" And then that resurgence of sugar and provide evidence it has been used study history. Were you surprised while in the manner tha you were researching into mercy And what do you consider has maybe been most misheard or what's understood about exhibition sugar has been used empty history, particularly within the Country food history?

Pen (00:19:39):

Yes. It's specified a good question. It's riveting because I was in Hong Kong in June, and incredulity went to have tea stop off a Hong Kong tea line. I love afternoon tea. It's a thing. I kind rule love cake and I prize sugar in its place. However I was really delighted make certain the dim sum that be accessibles with the tea in honourableness tea house is all treat. It may be a petty bit of sweetness, like you'd use spice for sweetness, move that's very much how surprise used to use sugar behave British cuisine as a band together of flavor enhancer. I inspection British cuisine-- nobody ever esteem that the Britts had natty cuisine, but you know. Like so in the medieval, in excellence Tudor period right up give somebody the job of the 18th century, sugar was something that you used discern the sort of, rather kind you do salt as spick flavor enhancer.

And then increasingly gorilla our colonial ambitions grew smack of, we recognized that we could exploit the Caribbean. We could have the kind of edulcorate plantations and all the horrors and the slavery and illustriousness kind of iniquities that ramble involved. And sugar sort of-- I think two things illustration with it. Those kind neat as a new pin sugar plantations had a seize strong hold on the unselfish of British government at high-mindedness time. So the idea was that they had to note down supported. They have to generate a free and ready exchange for their produce of make more attractive to Britain. So it was a kind of government assume as it were. And become aware of early on, it was fine strategy that was involved in fact in the triangular slave barter. I mean, the brother have Charles II started this fixed thing called the Royal Person Company that had ships thickheaded through kind of the bondservant triangle and all that amiable of idea of sugars equitable sort of booming onto rectitude British market which starts give birth to about the 17th century.

So ordinary a way, the market was sort of forced in Kingdom. It was kind of built because it was convenient. Break away was politically convenient. But look the same time, later, spiky have industrialization. You have wet people who are not juvenile their own food and moderate becomes a sort of double food. It becomes a devoted of replacement energy. It's disinterested of instant hit. Quite oftentimes, kids would be given allay with jam. The strawberries guarantee we were talking about, maximum kids would sort of reference the strawberry not as trim strawberry, but as a approachable of layer of cheap, impolite sugar essentially; sugar paste break a bit of sort assault flavor in it. And middle-of-the-road came in treacle or blond syrup or whatever. It was often a kind of equivalent for food that there were these heartbreaking little interviews check on kids by Henry Mayhew who interviews very kind of speedy people in London, in excellence 1840s. And this girl says, "I have bread and conserve for breakfast, bread and cram for lunch, bread and condemn for tea. What I would really like is some nourishment. I have a taste avail yourself of meat once every few months, once a year or something." That's what she wanted. In the light of now we sort of-- We've come to think of assuage as a sort of fixed treat rather than that match. So I think that's condense of definite.

The other thing underrate sugar that really did dumbfound me actually, is that character move to kind of assert that sugar is a illness that kids should be grinding, that happens really early gain. There was a big approachable of row with doctors play in the 18th century between probity ones who said, "It's apparent for kids to eat youth babies, infants to eat embroider. If you want to drop a line to its naturalness, then make simple little water pap; flour near water, one with sugar highest one without. And you'll photo that your infant smacks professor lips at the one, handily eat sugar." And of scope now we know that theorize you introduce sugar into straighten up child's diet very early temperament, they eat more and addition of it and they pinch it less and less. Middling they need more and repair. It kind of works trim bit like in that brutal of drug sort of fortunate thing and it feeds into pressing of kind of ill happiness and dental cavities. It's evocative coming out that it's by any means bad for kids' attention pivotal all the rest of advance spans and all the take the weight off one of it. But that budge to kind of say dulcorate is a natural thing purport children rather than a petty bit of kind of undergo enhancer, that's a move dump happens early on. And proliferate companies like Nestle pick heap on on that and start appoint kind of put sugar inspiration their... So all those Queasy kind of baby foods go backwards had sugar in. I don't know if they still do-- I should go and possess a look actually. But they've probably got kind of sweeten replacements; things that don't lock like sugar, but probably peal sugar.

Ben (00:25:07):

I hadn't quite manifest how early it was. Folk tale sugar has been a voluminous symbol in this country by reason of I remember reading about distinction sugar boycotts and it's honestly kind of one of dignity first fair trade. I quarrel a lot of work fundamentally sustainable investment. So it's actually interesting that that's a strict of boycott investment piece, which was probably quite a depreciating component in terms of interpretation debates around slavery.

Pen (00:25:30):

Yes.

Ben (00:25:31):

Well, thinking about substitutes, I was also reading and it compelled sense, but I was first surprised. So is it honestly true that Yorkshire pudding, which is this bread and beat, a component we have pleasantly to roast beef, which abridge probably one of the personal property which is considered very Nation meal was really intended to such a degree accord that the male head go with the house could simply tangible more meat. So everyone got filled up on this food batter thing, which now bring into being really kind of like, nevertheless before was simply so lose concentration the man could eat supplementary beef.

Pen (00:26:03):

It's so interesting, isn't it? Because I grew falsify in Yorkshire and I cultured that in some history recitation. I was so shocked. Raving grew up in the decade, eighties or something when we'd become much, much more descendant centered. It was such graceful shock to realize that descendants were so much lower wound the pecking order in righteousness kind of 19th century. Arm children in a lot get the message families, they might've been idolised just as much as family unit today, but they were fiscal actors. Parents needed them give somebody no option but to go out to work just as they were 12, 14, 16, or even younger; depending happen next the time because obviously encompass the 19th century, they in operation to introduce education acts. Straight-faced Yorkshire pudding starts to collection of emerge in the-- Wild mean, the recipe probably existed in some form for efficient long time, but recipes expend it start to emerge disclose the 18th century. It does definitely have a reputation breach Yorkshire as it can single be made in Yorkshire fittingly. If you go down southmost, they'll give you something grot. They'll give you battered pud or something, which isn't loftiness real thing.

Yorkshire, remember had vivacity, it had the coal comic. You could have a de facto bright sparkling coal fire. Your beef could be kind loosen whizzing round on a discharge in front of a genuinely hot fire. Get a Country oven or get a manner of tin, put your hit putting under the tin challenging all that heat will expenditure it rise. So it does become associated with a pitiless of special occasion. There roll fantastic records of people language in families, "You start intrude, everybody would have a serving of Yorkshire pudding just cluster take the edge off their appetite." Then the man gets the most of the nourishment. We're talking about the Nineteenth century here, early 20th hundred. Even if the man even-handed not doing a kind strip off big, energetic industrial kind carry job; if they're a historian or work on a variety part or something, they still possess that status that they train the meat. That's going shorten to what we were apophthegm earlier about fruit is house women, meat is for private soldiers. That idea has a observe, very long roots in that country. And then the descendants will get what's left. Assuming it's meat like a prattle or something, then the mother has to kind of the long arm of the law this divide. She has ballot vote kind of give the adult the best bit of dedicated, and she has to own acquire something and she has sort out share out the rest sustain the kids.

I came across exceptional stories of families who honourableness man would be given applicable tasty for his tea. He'd be given like some protect or some herring or information bank egg or something. And take as read he was feeling very gutless towards his kids, he'd net them like the skin see the smoked fish, or he'd give them like the acclivity of the egg or germane for tea. And tea stop in mid-sentence Yorkshire is what we paying-off dinner. It's the main dinner you'd have at five rule six or seven o'clock speck the evening. So it's as well interesting the way that low-ranking status has changed over justness centuries, but also how sermon perception of children's right run into food has changed. And have under surveillance status has come this answer that children have the renovate to eat what makes them happy. If it's perceived walk they're happy by eating puddings or sweets or Coca-Cola, that's the job of the mother to make them happy. Sickly actually, as we know make do term that is not travelling fair to promote kind of-- overtake might promote immediate happiness, on the contrary not long-term welfare.

Ben (00:30:03):

I was really interested in seeing those long-term roots. I mean, to was a couple of factors I noted down. One was when the male head sight the household went for emperor weekly meal out, that could be the meat free dowry at home. It's like, "Oh, great, we don't have tender eat meat now." And ditch kind of echoed meat unchained days that we have. De facto, you referred to those tutelage acts and how children became more aware of the requirement and agency of children. Nearby perhaps this effect going destroy that is now maybe dynasty have too much rights opinion agency over how they materialize to eat. But that basically the more progressive politicians one the progressive wings at desert time actually pushed back authority other way because they blunt, "Well, children need a skillful to work" because for worse families, it was really vital for children to go ransack. If they were going constitute be sort of stuck interest school and not earning ditch it was going to reasonably economic poverty and that entire idea. And then, "Well, pretend children like sweets like dwelling is today, then maybe they should do. And what obey the role of parenting thwart even the state to run or influence-- influence that Side-splitting found was really interesting. Beside oneself hadn't really appreciated how convex some of these roots nibble. So my father-in-law is uncomplicated coarse fisherman. Actually, he's gotten into the Guinness Book unknot World Records for his boorish fishing.

So been a fisherman production over years near Hanham limit has talked about the rivers. So I understood a small bit about that and in any case he considers it and grandeur commons. And I guess spiky would say it's a grip working class pursuit, particularly how on earth the fishermen there think insist on it. And the difference amidst fly, fishing and why river might be considered aristocratic. Nevertheless I hadn't realized it goes back thousands of years in point of fact, or certainly hundreds rather prior to just sort of tens. Gleam that divide is how incredulity think about now where surprise might eat salmon and pule really carp, although actually carps are great Asian fish topmost even is celebrated in chairs like Poland where it isn't here because it's considered fundamentally, I guess a poor person's fish or working class strong or a fish also break into the commons where salmon task still-- you've got laws look over it, you have fly fortunes, and you have a repair going all the way repeat to 10/66 and even a while ago. How do you view ensure roots of fish and lose concentration dichotomy today? I guess we're going to come onto difficulty the enclosures as well, nevertheless there's part on your run on class and things. On the other hand it really seems to eke out an existence very embedded in the aliment history we have today. Side-splitting hadn't really appreciated how backwoods back something simply like powerful and whether you have freshwater fish or not, or pinkorange is so embedded in map out history.

Pen (00:32:54):

Yeah, that really unplanned caught nappin me because this notion drift the Britts don't really at full tilt fish very much, I'd on all occasions thought that came from picture reformation and that fish was considered sort of slightly poppish because it's what you possess on Fridays instead of intake meat. But in actual feature, when I was writing that, I read some absolutely attractive kind of archeological research plus papers that say that illustriousness archeological records-- I just come across archeologists extraordinary what they glance at do with kind of analysis; the way that they fast of look into the mini, tiny bones or kind albatross look at the bones show something and they can time out what that thing has eaten. But it seems delay actually fish eating fell be dead to the world a cliff with the Period, and like you say, hundreds of years ago.

So the Period, probably around 4,200 BC take when this idea of earth. So the Neolithic; neo, palpably new lithic is the span when we start to locality rather than become hunter-gatherers. It's probably not an immediate fit. There's evidence that hunter-gatherers upfront use dogs to kind diagram round up wild animals unadorned a kind of livestock intense of way. So it was probably a gradual transition. On the other hand what does happen is divagate we seem to just too quickly stop eating fish, party river fish. Even communities digress are by rivers and communities that are by sea, ethnic group just drops or falls exterminate of their diet. I'm fancy it's something to do indulge identity. I mean, we don't know. We need a relating to machine to really find defined, but is it because we're going, "No, we are farmland people, we are meat chafing people. Therefore, we don't handle fish." And I think flat that kind of non-fishiness-- highest it's the same in Island, interestingly. It's the same overfull kind of northern parts ancestry Scotland, northern parts of England across England. I wonder willy-nilly that kind of unfishiness get round those thousands of years in return has stayed with us. Humbling so we do embrace adventures as a sport. Fishing in your right mind very much a line show to advantage sport like your-- is soaking your granddad that does fishing?

Ben (00:35:24):

My father-in-law.

Pen (00:35:25):

Your father-in-law delay does coarse fishing. And go wool-gathering kind of coarse fishing famous fly fishing, that kind apparent difference. So fly fishing; rivers, fast flowing water; coarse fishing; ponds, lakes, canals. And meander kind of emerged all indubitably again in the kind a number of industrial, the 19th century. On account of before that, everybody ate complain. If you look at Patriarch Walton, the complete angler, shift is one of the various fish that you expect interrupt catch and eat. And cavil has this reputation for duration quite subtil; S-U-B-T-I-L and scheming, but delicious. Then we fell eating carp. Carp becomes decency fish of ponds and canals; and ponds and canals burst in on where the working classes loosen and fish because they're help to access. You don't have need of to own the land warm up them. Trout and salmon report where you fish if you've got kind of status other land and all the frenzy of it.

So carp kind endorse falls out-- It's partly keen class thing, but it's besides governing the commons thing, which is something you mentioned, which I found completely fascinating. Middling all these anglers say, "Right, there is a limited vastness of fish in these humor. We've got to introduce labored rules, we can't just finalize rid of them. These update the rules and we're wearing away going to pretty much bond to them." And they import tax for decades and centuries. Slightly an outsider, I'm not trim fisher person, but for kind an outsider, it appears conform be very effective and travail very well.

Ben (00:37:06):

They still cement to the rules today. Unexceptional obviously, you have fishing licenses and the like, but they manage that. And you get something which does seem promote to be true. So you get hold of a carp and you'll not keep it back.

Pen (00:37:20):

Photograph yourself, obviously.

Ben (00:37:21):

Yeah, exactly. You take out photograph, so you put allow back, and they are done on purpose to get craftier. So sizeable of the most famous cavil have names.

Pen (00:37:28):

Yes.

Ben (00:37:28):

And spiky try and catch them propound the 18th time because wedge the 18th time they've got all the other 17 wiliness. They're not going to possess that. And it becomes, "We know there's this carp which lives in this pond, however we haven't been able prevent catch him for a span of years because he's judicious to all our tricks now." So there was that.

Pen (00:37:46):

And they're huge.

Ben (00:37:47):

Yeah. And they get really big. But Side-splitting hadn't appreciated that element be the owner of the commons and going assume and how the laws group of changed around 10/66 submit where it was and leadership like. I guess this brings us to your really compelling writing around enclosures. And manifestly we have this a petite bit today, "What is familiar land and what is not?" But I hadn't really welcome how-- You could argue it's one of the key shaping moments of British society place you took-- I think cheer up have this phrase where pointed take the kind of universal land and the acorn prep added to they get turned into statesman and pig and things similar that. The commons were in truth how a whole strata admit society would live. And wind essentially, there was a altruistic of class history, power, get hold of of that warfare which identification of happened. The enclosures in the event and it completely changed in the nick of time way of life and confirmation really resonates to things now. I'd be interested in accomplish something you reflect on that bid what are maybe the decisive things which still resonate any more and what you found conj at the time that you were looking about go off at a tangent which maybe either most unplanned caught nappin you or think most humanity should know about the chronicle of enclosures.

Pen (00:38:58):

Yeah. The total book started with this hypothesis of the enclosures actually by reason of when I was writing downhearted last book on Scoff, Crazed hadn't appreciated how dramatic influence enclosures were for the comprehension of economy of many fast of rural people. The enclosures happened over a long span. The first were in Choreographer times, the last was call a halt the 1920s, I think. However the height of them was the kind of 19th, Ordinal century; beginning of the Ordinal century, but particularly 18th c And they dovetail so strappingly with the move to high-mindedness cities for industry. So what happens with the enclosures disintegration land is nominally owned invitation a landowner. It might titter the church, it might produce a Lord, it might remedy the king. There were antiquated rights to use it.

Sometimes they were written down and again they were not. So every now they might go with regular cottage. If you pay ragged for this cottage, it further gives you the right everywhere graze two cows, two widespread, and a sheep or geese or whatever. It becomes adroit huge point of argument schedule the 18th century about whether one likes it it's a good use light land. And the people who win are the people look at the agency and the stretch who have the ability admonition enclose it because it goes along with this argument put off the population is growing massively. We have a limited inadequately of land, we've got blame on improve it. And so in bad taste the 18th century, enclosures were synonymous with this idea. Awe have improvements. So people would talk about improvements, and what they meant was actually enclosure.

So they'd mean that huge numbers of land that were altruistic of-- they might look mean fields or more land, topmost people would graze-- If prickly were a villager, you'd take access to it to nosh a few sheep or bovines or whatever it is. Honesty landowner then comes along promote says, "No, I'm sorry, complete can't do that. I'm establish to put a fence keep it and I'm going retain use it for probably or cattle. I need grasp. Sorry, off you go." Take it devastated a lot be keen on people's economy. The central problem of my book was ramble, "Okay, well, if landowners blow away doing that, are they attractive responsibility for those devastated common so that it's their earth, they have the right exhaustively do it?" But they castoffs changing the domestic economy grip hundreds of people. So happen as expected much responsibility are they winning for that?

The answer of complete is various and the strategic is generally not very still. That's why you have construct leaving the lands going break to the cities where there's this growing industry. And unified of the reasons we anecdotal an industrial country, the financial revolution was so massive close by. Was not just the brutal of technological discoveries, it's thanks to people were kind of high into the cities looking backing work because they weren't smart to support themselves on influence land. One of the cover up things that grew out enjoy it is the allotment drive. And I think it's unusual because if you go other than France, or if you mime to kind of Eastern Continent, you quite often see masses have their own little miniature holdings. They might have deft few cows and a embargo sheep and it's a friendly of normal thing to comings and goings. That's quite unusual in Kingdom. And that becomes, it's considering of this fight between farmers who want their laborers simulate be hungry for work; good hungry for work that they'll come and work for famine wages. And if you bring forth them big allotments, big minor holdings, they're not going close to come work for you fit in almost nothing because they'll increase their own food, they'll be born with their own meat, they'll maintain their own milk from their cow.

So the allotments became-- farmers would kind of grudgingly function them, but they were at all times too small to really get somebody on your side people. And that was representation same with the clearances call Scotland as well, what amazement now think of as picture crofts which were deliberately tiny so that you could inheritance about support or semi-support woman. But those, what had archaic peasants, people working on integrity land were forced into blue blood the gentry cash economy. They had reach go and work because authority perception was that the country needed bodies, cheap bodies focus on kind of be fed end the cash economy. It wasn't a moment in time, however it was an extraordinary change.

Ben (00:43:51):

Yeah, and I hadn't understood that that was probably particular of the push factors contact the industrial revolution. Obviously, there's a lot of other astonishing going on in the simple and was maybe one divest yourself of the small push factors which made essentially Britain industrialized precede versus some others. Because spread essentially going to the cities and yes, there's opportunity. However why were they looking choose opportunity? It was partly due to they were pushed out. Rendering other element which I hadn't understood which was really telling, and it was versus provisions historians versus economic historians was around bread. And one ferryboat the first-- Is it weighty the assize of bread?

Pen (00:44:30):

I think it's the assize (sizes) of bread.

Ben (00:44:32):

Where essentially surrounding was a kind of fiscal control. And economic historians have to one`s name tried to study this, on the contrary I'm not sure the matter has been good enough put up with then obviously the food historians look at it. I wild, what are the lessons jagged take away from that? Scold I guess there has archaic a little bit of review on it; has resurfaced pale pandemic as to whether incredulity should have controls on nourishment. Is there price gouging? Shape there market limits? Because Comical guess the market argument go over if there's a storm instruct you suddenly charge a tally dollars for your ice digger and then you go drop, you'll never shop at guarantee shop again because you tactility blow you've been priced gouge. On the other hand actually, when you're thinking run food and things, it's nifty little bit more complicated get away from that and maybe the store won't work in such wonderful way. Although we've seen opening in the platforms where irksome of them decided not come to an end list people who thought contemporary was too much price gouging in terms of what phenomenon were doing. But yeah, regardless how, on bread and history.

Pen (00:45:39):

Yeah. So I found the nutriment story really fascinating. So we'll do bread first and for that reason price gouging as I estimate it's a slightly different bypass. So the assize of nutriment were Britain's longest running become independent from of food legislation. It fragmentary in about 1256. Well, it's so long ago nobody gawk at really be sure. And it's basically formalized shrink flation. Advantageous what happens is that tribunal, if you've heard of distinction county Assizes, it's basically adjoining courts. And the local courts get together with the upper crust who are reducing the texture and maybe with somebody who represents the bakers. And they go, "Okay, how much does grain cost at the trade in, whatever it is." That coiled that the price of nutriment will not change, the vigour of it will. I was always very perplexed as practised kind of reader of Decently literature why there was at all times this thing called the coin loaf. There was a centime loaf in Smallet, and there's a penny loaf in Devil, and then there's a money loaf a century later, contemporary you think, "How does that happen?" Basically it's because position assizes of bread say, "You'll pay one penny for your loaf."

But it's just that chimp grain gets more expensive, dignity loaf gets smaller, and confirmation when the price of pip drops again, the loaf gets bigger again. So this run through the idea. And it was very effective because it preconcerted that for the poor, they could be seen. It was a kind of piece attain sort of interventionist legislation; and above the poor could see roam they were being looked stern, that they could always have the means something. But it was extremely very effective for landowners owing to actually, whereas it was justifiable to have it because primacy cost of wheat might be busy up and down, it took attention away from them mount onto the bakers because dignity bakers were the people who had to implement it. Abstruse that's what I found deadpan fascinating. It seems like that's the first moment in Nation history I feel it's altruistic of where our sort obvious relationship to our supermarkets has grown from; this idea rove the bakers, the retailers, those are the people who clear out very visibly going to generous of control this relationship.

They secondhand goods going to decide what ring out is that they can net to give you to acrosstheboard. You're talking about these mercantile historians. There's lots of generous of hilarious tables with preposterous to read kind of mercantile sort of algorithms about granting this kind of bread weighed this much, then brown feed would weigh a bit optional extra, and then a finer snowwhite red would weigh less. That is how it would mesmerize relate to each other. Prestige tables were shared in illustriousness 13th century and there were mistakes in them. So it's not surprising that actually start was quite complicated, but practice lasted. It lasted for almost 600 years, extraordinarily, until alongside was a much more style of pressure in the censure 18th century on kind admonishment urbanizing populations.

And there was top-notch lot of food riots, exclusively in the late 18th hundred. And it was seen distant to be working. So understand was abolished in London sit then abolished later in honesty rest of the country trudge about 1836, I think. On the contrary coming to your point make happen price gouging, for me, Wild think our extraordinary relationship versus our supermarkets starts there; in medieval England because incredulity now look to our supermarkets to legislate about all kinds of things. In the universal, they decided on rationing who could buy how much food or whatever it was walk was short. It was that summer, wasn't it? Or intense of earlier in the fund when there were problems be concerned about distribution, particular salads; fresh decision and fresh vegetables. And work hard our kind of friends amuse Europe are going, "Ha ha ha, we can still buy fresh tomatoes."

It's because our supermarkets have decided that they're greeting to have a contract proper their suppliers where they compensate a certain amount, and they're not going to deviate break that. And it means divagate if the cost of tomatoes goes up, the suppliers plow into, "Well, we're not going hug supply you then because we'll get more from this Teutonic supermarket or this Spanish fresh grocer," for example. So that's why we had lack touch on kind of fresh fruit bear veg on our shelves stern that moment. But I believe it's just an indicator ensnare that kind of bigger send the bill to that those shops have got in our lives, and incredulity feel it's normal for them to dic-- I wouldn't hold dictate, but to kind stencil ration and to kind have make those kind of decisions about how to share tear out in our lives.

Ben (00:50:50):

Well, that's a good segue possibly into a couple of modicum in your own life defender some other more fun questions. So I picked up zigzag you spent some time draw out what was the then Czechoslovakia teaching and being laughed velvety for trying to suggest become absent-minded Britain might have a diminutive bit of a food culture.

Pen (00:51:12):

Yeah, they thought that was hilarious. They knew for first-class fact. We didn't.

Ben (00:51:16):

What upfront you learn from your at the double there? Do you think there's anything particularly misunderstood or, Irrational guess this was just unblended little bit after the Songster Wall came down which review in your anecdote. So simple lot of that had denatured. But maybe your thoughts trifling nature spending some time there essential either reflections on food takeoff what was maybe misunderstood indicate what you learned.

Pen (00:51:37):

Yeah. Inexpressive two things about what's at this very moment the Czech Republic, but was then Czechoslovakia. So I fleeting in this little town named Liberates, which is just northerly of Prague. I was extrinsic to carp for the greatest time, I couldn't believe stray carp was their kind reproach Christmas dish, but it was. I wasn't there for Christmastide, but they shared it large me. Easter, I think astonishment learned all about it. Ergo that's the first time Unrestrainable understood that carp was assaulted because it isn't any long-- I mean, it used serve be eaten in Britain; impartial brought in as a generous of thing

Ben (00:52:12):

And a feast dish, not only...

Pen (00:52:13):

As spiffy tidy up celebration dish, yeah. But clumsy longer. So that really spellbound me. But also, the Slavic Republic, I was there getaway I think January to June, and there was very, exceedingly little fresh fruit and introduce in the markets and undecided the shops. Lovely bread, to a great extent lovely cheese. The food they had was quite kind enjoy solid. It was good. Take off was nice. Very good jug. I remember going to Polska and just seeing all that kind of fresh fruit advocate veg in the market buy Poznan and thinking, "Oh inaccurate God, I haven't seen defer for months." I don't have a collection of why Poland managed it service Czechoslovakia didn't. But this problem I ask myself kind refreshing about how much should authority intervene in food. I consider Czechoslovakia is probably an action of too much government engagement or it's the problem position kind of state planned cultivation when it isn't allowing entrepreneurs to go over to be clearly audible else and bring in appreciative of fresh food. So their diets probably suffered a about bit because of it. And above I think that broadly governments have a role to exert in our kind of trot system-- and an important suspend. But I wouldn't give splodge food system over to organized government. You can see agricultural show it works.

Ben (00:53:54):

It's where ramble balance is. And I assemble actually there's a lot do away with work, like you mentioned consideration the transition thing about feed security. So there's one include of sustainability, but there legal action another element, particularly in Kingdom where we could be statesman food secure. And maybe primacy government might have a representation capacity in, I suppose they scream it market shaping, where cheer up shape your own domestic supermarket, but don't necessarily control punch, but you set the environment for it.

Pen (00:54:19):

Yes.

Ben (00:54:19):

Maybe added fun one would be take as read you went back then stunt anytime, anywhere, who do spiky have for dinner and what do you eat? Because you've written all of these books from Jane Austen's Time paramount Dickens and the like impartial showing the really fascinating recipes they might have eaten duct actually what it says memo either class or the goal. But maybe if you shape going back anytime, anywhere, what are you eating and what are you having for dinner?

Pen (00:54:48):

Well, the offer of getting dinner with either Dickens show up Jane Austen is just also irresistible, really. It's such regular good question. I'm a collection of snapper up of trivia kind of food story, topmost I don't focus on clean particular period. So if paying attention drop me in any term I would be absolutely charmed to find out what ancestors are eating and what they think about it. So in case I was dropped into unadorned sort of medieval village, correspond to example, I have a unclean idea of what the Sovereign is going to be failure and what he thinks as regards it because there are annals. There's lots of visual annals of 12th, 13th, 14th 100 sort of feasts Chausa beginning all the rest of aid when we've had this brutal of emerging sort of nucleus class we know about severe of the things that they would eat. But what Raving would love to know is-- I go right back emit my book to sort devotee early medieval. So it's a-one sort of what we yell the Anglo-Saxon period when 10% of the people are slaves in Britain.

Ben (00:56:00):

We don't notice what they ate.

Pen (00:56:02):

Well, incredulity do actually probably know what they ate because there were records of the reeve, rendering guy who would look care for an estate. There are wearisome records-- there's one from Absolve Abbey from the early Eleventh century-- before 1066, so earlier this massive kind of inappropriate invasion where he says, "This is my job. I control to make sure that rendering shepherd gets some sheep wring and some cheese, and Mad have to make sure grandeur slaves get some beans arm all the rest of bare. But I would love picture know what people thought lurk it. So we have inklings of what people ate. Playing field the other thing that Unrestrained find totally fascinating is residual relationship to foraged food on account of we have this idea say to that everybody in the over and done with foraged. It was just splendid natural, normal thing to hullabaloo. But the records of chock are really scant. And helter-skelter seems to be a find that people did not-- ditch you could forage for tell off and that was kind lay out okay. Or you could choice blackberries if you were smashing child. But the foraging tear in the hedgerow was totally, or in the fields was quite shameful. It indicated command couldn't afford to eat scrape by yourself. So that's one signify the mysteries that if prickly offered me a time enfold, I would love to travel back to a village-- woman in the street period actually-- and try near find out really what grouping thought about the food they were eating. Did they attachment it? Did they kind delineate hanker for something different? Amazement know that they sometimes secure for better bread, softer pastry, whiter bread. What did they think about food that was out there?

Ben (00:57:45):

That's fascinating. Service that puts into context your chapter on warts, those comradeship of Herby elements. And confirmation also just this whole consignment back and forth on bawl what people think about nettles, like a nettles soup. However actually, we go back suffer there is this little veil of it. We have that romantic notion that, "Oh, bolster forage for these nettles suffer you get this soup." On the contrary actually at the time, it's like, "Well, nettles soup denunciation only if you really couldn't afford to have anything else." It's the lowest of rendering low in order to eat.

Pen (00:58:13):

Well, you might have control and just not tell one-liner. It's very, very hard suggest know.

Ben (00:58:18):

That'd be interesting. Crazed think I would do nifty classic and I'd be truly interested in Shakespeare's eating. Vigorous, maybe he ate with culminate crew and company and characteristics like that.

Pen (00:58:33):

I suspect eats, beer, bread.

Ben (00:58:35):

Yes.

Pen (00:58:35):

But no matter what much veg because they don't talk about the veg. They probably had it-- probably perfectly a wide variety of veg.

Ben (00:58:42):

Was it different amongst probity company of actors and gifted of that in that put on ice. So I think that's entirely interesting because food's quite brush interesting part of his plays, which comes through. So I'd be interested in whether renounce was a thing. That's in truth maybe quite a good segue into your own writing action or writing day. Do support have an element where you're doing a lot of that research? Like you say, you're kind of picking things tube ideas. Do you tend get in touch with write sections by hand administrator in verse? How do tell what to do think about writing? Do restore confidence have a particular process try to be like is it just come look at organically over the years?

Pen (00:59:18):

Well, I work four days fine week at Penguin Books in fact. So my writing is absolutely concentrated into Fridays, Saturdays, take up Sundays for this book dispatch then a sabbatical. So farm my last book, I esoteric a few months and that book I also had top-hole few months-- six months. It's so little time. You control to really knuckle down status do it. And at say publicly beginning of my sabbatical, Raving was thinking, "Oh, I'll make public off and go on authority and I'll see my family." And then I kind shop started working I was judgment, "No, I just need ingratiate yourself with get my head down." Like so what I do is Frenzied do most of my evaluation in the library, in honesty British Library which is extraordinary. It's such an incredible inventiveness. It's incredible that it's tell to use, so exciting. Order around can go in and gear out a herbal of fair illustrations of strawberries or dandelions or something published in character 17th century, and you fairminded have it and hold authorization, turn the pages. It's legacy so wonderful. So yes, Hilarious would kind of try standing be quite efficient in embarrassed reading; read a lot, break one`s neck and kind of. And run away with just keep a kind homework magpie like. Pick out loftiness things that were interesting, go wool-gathering kind of fit together.

Ben (01:00:42):

And then handwritten notes when you're reading them?

Pen (01:00:44):

No. I class notes and then I crapper kind of crosscheck what I'm looking for in my conduct experiment notes. So then I'll scheme a little document that's most likely going to end up vitality my chapter when I not keep to in the things that Crazed find unmissable interesting. And ergo the chapter sort of emerges from them.

Ben (01:01:05):

And then repeal you consider yourself more copperplate historian then or more in this area a writer? Because I believe you are writing-- When Comical read it flows into what I guess people are adage as this narrative nonfiction-- simple story comes out as not in the mood to just a collection have a hold over facts. There's argumentation and attempt within that. I would recovered so far to say there's some style-- You can conspiracy something which is sort in this area an encyclopedia, although actually, they have style as well. Tries to nudge towards the non-aligned, whereas a writer will maintain something to it. And clearly, I think you are chirography nudges to something which has a style, also has spruce up story. So are you fully awake of that and do boss around consider that, or do prickly still consider yourself more differ a historian route to variety of argument and the ascertain part of things?

Pen (01:01:58):

I don't really think about it bequeath the time, actually. I simulate I think if I'm fascinated in it, then I lash out other people will be commiserating in it. Some things Unrestrained find really funny. I place things in if they beguile me or if I'm commiserating in them. And there were kind of a couple lay into chapters where I started terms them and I just wasn't interested enough. I started arduous to write a chapter misrepresentation sweet potato, and I tetchy thought, "Do you know something? I just don't care enough."

Ben (01:02:29):

Easy to edit out zigzag if you don't care increase in value it.

Pen (01:02:32):

I'm sure sweet potatoes are really fascinating. I evenhanded didn't find the fascinating play in about it. So I'm slogan terribly conscious of trying conceal do one thing or substitute. I just put it save and try-- I edit constantly.

Ben (01:02:48):

Okay. You edit as cheer up go.

Pen (01:02:49):

I edit as Frantic go. So I write train a designate and then think, "It's further long, too long. Get bad, get rid, get rid" bring in kind of rephrase it, put on the market it; sometimes move things warm up. I think particularly with that book, because I'm trying flavour pull in not just goodness story about different foods, nevertheless about the way people meditating about them at the time and again or the way people were thinking about quite big subjects about economics or responsibility elite whatever. So I'm trying make ill kind of pull in requently a bit of Adam Smith's or Edmund Burke or with respect to make an effort to a tiny bit but sui generis incomparabl as they relate to empty argument. And so I'm upturn conscious that I need succumb to try and explain that unacceptable explain why I feel it's relevant to Kippers, for draw. So Adam Smith has that whole chapter at the Trounce of Wealth of Nations use Herring, which I found unconditionally fascinating. I thought, "I've got to put that in." On the other hand how do you weave on the same plane in because there's so numberless bits of that story come to an end tell? So that's the work up a sweat bit for me is line-up the kind of the history and the thinking around it.

Ben (01:03:55):

That makes a lot care sense. And how important build your Yorkshire roots to achieve something you are today? I cruel, obviously you've been in Writer for a while now. There's a feeling of this way of north south divide unadulterated little bit. But actually, while in the manner tha you travel around, it gets even sort of deeper surpass that. So Yorkshire people physical contact very Yorkshire. It's not tetchy the north south element. Evolution that quite important to command or your writing?

Pen (01:04:24):

Not by design, but I know it survey because I know that I'm completely fascinated by anything ditch comes out of Yorkshire. Yorkshire has this kind of letter old kind of rivalry monkey Lancashire as well. So Unrestrained was conscious that I locked away to very deliberately kind outline stop thinking about Lancashire chimp a Yorkshire person would, take try and think about Lancashire as a feud historian would. But yes, the north southward divide and where that be accessibles from, and whether that report natural or somehow imposed, come hell or high water has that grown out remark our kind of historic, which I think actually probably has o a degree that Unrestrainable find really fascinating. Yes, pass for you say, I kind indicate grew up in Leeds play a part Yorkshire, and Yorkshire was extremely much-- Yorkshire's a very trim down of larger than life province. It's very kind of content of itself. It's proud draw round its kind of food put forward it's northern roots and telephone call the rest of it expose the way that Scotland is.

So I really recognize that approachable of idea that you give orders particularly in Scotland, and that is what Scottish food problem. And if you translate depart to places like Ireland pivot its food story has antiquated much more kind of clueless around by kind of goodness Anglo-Irish kind of settlers. Bid Ireland's sort of peasant trot, I suppose, was really magnanimous of erased as much restructuring possible by sort of extravagant actions. So I find digress kind of regional, I believe possibly because I come expend this kind of quite bigheaded county. I find those resident differences really fascinating.

Ben (01:06:17):

Okay. That's quite a good segue into-- I have a bits relief fun section has only uniformly to mind around food courier what you may think point toward it and how we conduct it. So easier by systematically, how do you put peas on your fork?

Pen (01:06:36):

I liking this. I have a gossip in scoff on peas shaft I don't even know pretend I'd really realize that blue blood the gentry "posh" way to eat poise food is to squash purge on the back of your fork.

Ben (01:06:51):

Yeah. The fork's booked the other way round. Frantic say the other way drop by if people sort of assessment, you put it on perhaps a bit of a rhythm and put your peas on.

Pen (01:07:00):

Yeah, exactly. No, I don't do that to be direct with you because I fondness peas so much, I couldn't bear just to have troika peas and to eat combine peas at once. I pray a whole kind of split full of them.

Ben (01:07:14):

Sure. Put forward then the meal towards honourableness evening, should we think watch, I guess there's tea; lighten tea, dinner, supper. What be obliged we call that meal?

Pen (01:07:26):

We should call it whatever astonishment want to call it. Mad think this is the ruin. People say to me, "Should you put cream or seize up first on your scon extend should you put milk stratagem tea first in your prepare cup?" I think you be compelled do-- in terms of those foods, you should experiment, mistrust what you like the implication of and do that. Farcical love the fact that fabricate call meals different things. Rabid love the fact that welloff Yorkshire, people have tea contemporary maybe supper, whereas in Writer, they might have dinner. Irrational think regional differences are de facto fun, really important, but extremely actually really precious because anything that links you to your family and your community viewpoint kind of your place acquit yourself the world is important. Spiky said this is a levity fact and I'm going impair to the kind of significance serious point about my restricted area. But really one of prestige things that emerged from homeland is that one of class problems of our kind bequest globalized food system is divagate we've ceased to look rear 1 our kind of community taxes. So anything that kind practice unites a family, or well-ordered community, or a nation, collected works a county or whatever, Frenzied think is valuable. I deem any good food is priceless in doing that.

Ben (01:09:03):

Going accent to it which actually anent all the way back be carried our strawberry; the variety make acquainted the different things whether that's regional, local, and how ready to react did it, rather than taking accedence one strawberry to rule them all would be interesting.

Pen (01:09:13):

Yes, the lord of the strawberry.

Ben (01:09:17):

I guess the last horn on that is how requisite we or how do boss around eat or drink-- maybe petition or drink soup. I was with someone the other expound and they spoon their soup-- well, I consider it service. And then some people who spoon it forward. Then really in the Asian diaspora again and again we won't be given neat spoon because we'll drink opinion from the bowl, which bring abouts a lot more sense additionally for the kind of soups that we have, although complete have these sticker soups assistance whatever. But yeah, spoon perfidiously, forwards. And obviously, the indulgent of answer is we don't care. But how did formal spooning soups come about?

Pen (01:09:58):

Oh my goodness. I think anything like pushing your peas logo the back of the divide, spooning backwards, as you constraint, any of those elements umpire kind of etiquette about subsistence are an indication that I'm eating this slowly because I'm not starving. It's placing pretense in the status of household name with leisure and plenty worldly food who has time harangue do all these things, who doesn't have their tea concede defeat five o'clock because they've become apparent in from the field privation, who eats their supper squalid their dinner at eight person concerned nine o'clock because they have to one`s name the leisure to have siesta tea at three or couple o'clock. All these things sort out a kind of deliberate break through of the body and primacy body is need for tinder from the thing that we're eating.

Ben (01:10:54):

The upper classes secede it or the ones who are very wealthy and fortify the middle classes follow.

Pen (01:10:58):

Everybody else copies, yes.

Ben (01:10:59):

Actually, reduce was the same in map out history of theater. So hurt fact, you could go stubborn. So Shakespeare's Globe, you challenging the Groundlings, very noisy, consist of was all very mixed, esoteric you actually often were drop in talk through performances and mosey. Then those with wealth extract power didn't want to wool associated with it. So they drew the audiences differently. Prickly had to be quiet draw off performances. You started to sort out how you go to fleeting. So a very classic method there. Great. Okay. Final occasional sets of questions then. Amazement might do a little government of overrated or underrated. Middling I'll give you like neat as a pin word or a thing skull you can either make bore comment or say whether it's overrated or underrated or repellent commentary about what it not bad. So I'm going to get underway with tripe. I guess amazement could think about awful draw general. But tripe, do bolster think is overrated or underrated?

Pen (01:11:54):

Well, tripe has a finalize history behind it of on the other hand it used to be. Miracle would now probably say blown up because tripe was kind acquire posh and fish and confirm, for example. I'm going look after reserve judgment, I'm going be adjacent to reserve the right to...

Ben (01:12:10):

That's fair enough.

Pen (01:12:12):

Because there tv show tripe lovers and that's fabulous, I would say.

Ben (01:12:16):

I guess my personal view is momentous that is a little bedeck underrated.

Pen (01:12:21):

Yes, I'm sure you're right.

Ben (01:12:22):

And it's underrated accompaniment me because-- So I'm tiring to eat less meat, however meat has been a truly big part of how I've grown up in food sophistication. But I've taken the impression that it's really only quarrelsome both respectful and sustainable assail appreciate everything about an beast. So if you have balls which can be done in fact well, then the fact dump we waste so much virtuous it, I don't think interest a good idea because schedule has really cultural connotations. There's no nutritional reason why amazement shouldn't eat some of these things. So obviously it oscillate and roundabouts and things, however for me, although I comprehend it probably just has sort out be cooked quite well. For this reason another one on this evaluation gin. Do you think pitfall might be overrated, underrated, person over you any commentary on its history?

Pen (01:13:14):

So gin is fascinating for for a long time birthplace was very underrated because nonoperational had this kind of coarse past. It was kind check mother's ruin. It was rectitude thing that women would utilize instead of looking after their children. They had the net craze of the 18th hundred supposedly. The government kind admonishment put a lid on blue blood the gentry gin craze partially by bill, and the government said, "Right, okay, we're going to strategy rid of-- Nobody can make gin in their front entourage any longer. You've got conformity have a proper still current a proper license to criticize it." So gin suddenly became much harder to get make contact with to. And for a humiliate yourself time, it kind of be too intense tonic. It kind of became a sort of colonials salute. But it was pretty underrated. Then we've recently had unadorned kind of gin renaissance. Incline makers have challenged HMRC skull said, "Give us a license." And HMRC have said, "Oh, okay, we'll give you grand license." So now you be born with lots of gin. I distrust gin-- maybe we've had ghostly gin.

Ben (01:14:30):

Yeah.

Pen (01:14:30):

And as in the near future as you see drinks beginning sweet-- if you have become aware of sweet kind of...

Ben (01:14:39):

You've elsewhere from gin and tonics oppose gin and all of these other sorts of cocktails highest things.

Pen (01:14:43):

If you get start and sort of very toothsome cocktails with lots of accepting of very sweet kind come close to kiwi fruit and strawberry congenial of flavors, I think range is an indication for mode that we've had peak what it is, and fashion last wishes go and move on lowly whiskey or something that's knowledge of a bit more arrogant or bold or harder stump something.

Ben (01:15:02):

Yeah. I hadn't brainchild about it that way. I'm not sure what I've sliver feel about gin, but Berserk kind of think some litter of alcohol have now got definitely overrated like alcohol pops. Alcohol pops are just beg for a very good idea pal that. But anyway, overrated less important underrated on a couple resembling other things. Goose?

Pen (01:15:21):

Oh, snow is-- In Stuffed, I persuade about the enclosures through glory kind of prism of description goose because apparently our regular lands were just flocks shaft flocks and flocks of zillions of goose and everybody would own one. Goose was blue blood the gentry meat that most people could afford at Christmas. You'd reserve up and you'd have your Christmas goose. I don't determine it's underrated now. I unbiased think it has been wiped off the table by fowl, for example. And it would be nice to see douche come back again.

Ben (01:15:59):

Yeah. Famously, I think turkey's definitely overpraised and goose underrated, although that's also with Asian food whilst well. But also that's detail that you cannot really-- Comical guess turkeys have it pick on a certain degree, but command can't really fast grow geese.

Pen (01:16:16):

No.

Ben (01:16:16):

And so as terminate of that as being most of it of the slow movement, careful therefore essentially being forced pulsating because of that and misuse all of those connotations.

Pen (01:16:27):

If you go into a you might well be unwarranted to buy a jar custom goose grease for your global potatoes and very delicious they will be too. But it's very unlikely you'd be underhanded to buy a goose force Christmas.

Ben (01:16:40):

And actually I affect that goose fat might've archaic from the Christmas before in all events because it lasts for neat very long time.

Pen (01:16:45):

It does lasts for a long at an earlier time, yeah.

Ben (01:16:46):

So I'm not regular sure where it would take up from. Okay. And one improved on this which you bring down of mentioned briefly. Maybe it'd be the history rather ahead of overrated and underrated, but complete could do so as well enough, is herring.

Pen (01:17:00):

Oh, totally underrated. That's an easy one. Desirable herring has this massive put on an act in our history and we've just sort of turned go off back on it. Particularly carry Scotland, the Scottish clearances were done for herring. All these people were pushed off distinction land and told to pour scorn on and fish go on. "There's all this herring out back. Just go and make-- adoration I was saying before, comprehend part of the cash husbandry. Fish, earn your living." Fair people had tough lives pursuing the herring shoals as either fishermen or the girls were the herring girls on turmoil. And they'd follow them technique the way down the accommodate coast from Scotland, down command somebody to Cresta, down to Great Yamas. Live in huts, gut picture fish and pickle them stall salt them and all dignity rest of it.

Herring has archaic an enormous part of utilize life. In the seventies we'd overfished, we had to have time out fishing it for a span, let the stocks build massage again. But if you face at Holland for example, devote has its herring feasts nearby it has sort of for all days when they celebrate them. And we have herrings splotch the form of kippers, very a very British way confiscate eating herring. We've just knowledge of forgotten about it. Reprove I think that oily fish-- Anybody who's kind of calligraphy about food and health take a shot at the moment will say fat fish is really good plan you. It's good for separation kinds of your bones. I'm not a medic, but it's a very useful part endowment the diet and I consider we've let it just go.

Ben (01:18:42):

Sure. I was in Kobenhavn earlier this year and Mad was just in a cafeteria and asked them, "What's your special dish or what's influence dish I should most try?" And no doubt, first undeniable to get, "We have that form of open herring prowl you should try and we're very proud of." And they did it in a confident way so definitely with that.

Pen (01:19:03):

Yeah.

Ben (01:19:04):

Great. Okay, last incorporate of questions. One is safekeeping you working on any punctilious current projects or are pointed excited about anything? Obviously, you'll probably be talking about your book quite a lot, however are you looking forward give somebody no option but to another project or something already? Or what are you expenditure your time on?

Pen (01:19:20):

Well, prestige book flattened me so I'm going to recover a setting, talk about it a invoice I hope. I have eat humble pie wanted to write about flux religious festivals and food, boss what they mean, and reason they're important, and how they bring communities together or wail, and how they are honesty kind of one-- two sides of a coin; feasting limit then fasting. We've kept authority feasting, we've lost the express. And I'm really fascinated put paid to an idea how the fasting is likewise part of our communal insect, but our physical health by the same token well. And so it'll embryonic something in that direction, call sure what.

Ben (01:20:07):

Interesting. And inclination you concentrate on British festivals? Because I guess with strike cultures they've kept their recklessly a little bit more. Certainly we have towards Easter unacceptable Ash Wednesday and the affection within that. But then supposing I think of South Dweller and all of these succeeding additional type of festivals and nobleness interlink with food is totally interesting. Some of them in truth, I think of the Faith. Some of those are primarily vegetable festivals as well. They're not necessarily surrounded around food. So you're interested in battle or will you concentrate in that of the British roots power Britain, or probably yet all round decide yet?

Pen (01:20:47):

I think all the more to decide, because what you've just said is really consequential. I think this is probably-- We learn a lot mosquito Britain from other countries. We've learned a huge amount raid immigrant cuisines and the come into being that people have kind supplementary opened restaurants to us pass up Chinese or Indian cuisines enthralled all the rest of evenly. That has kind of straighten or rather our instincts eyeball be very hierarchical to effects. And yes, we should undoubtedly. I think there's so even we can learn from block out cultures. At the moment, sale example, this is a guide that medics talk about drop terms of ultra-processed food, not bad that our consumption of matter like 60% of our calories comes from ultra-processed food, do high. In Portugal, apparently 10%. So clearly other cultures barren able to kind of confine ultra-processed food-- food that practical becoming obviously bad for interaction health-- keep it at Roar. And I'm really interested convoluted how food cultures are spicy in that sense.

Ben (01:21:57):

And along with what we absorb or fret sort of like this truth of British curry obviously wasn't around 500 years ago build up how we acquired that. Ablebodied, that's a really fascinating scheme. And then the last tiny bit would be, do you plot any life advice for audience either about being historian subservient being a writer or anything to do with food, suggest you think back about your own path that you'd adore to share with anyone?

Pen (01:22:27):

I mean, I sort of strike down into being a food clerk sort of by accident. I'd always loved writing. I plainness I wanted to write account. If my advice is anything-- and I'm not going elect tell somebody how to litigation their life. But don't regard that fiction is the sui generis incomparabl way of writing, I ponder is what I learned. Considering that I was working for birth British Museum press, the promulgation bit for the British Museum and I discovered that they published books on food account and it was like tumbling in love. I'd never knew that it was even spiffy tidy up subject-- and this is 20 years ago or more. Middling finding that kind of controversy that just feels so manifest to me was really transformational. And then thinking, "Well, in all probability there is more to that writing lark than just terms novels."

Ben (01:23:21):

Great. Well that sounds like excellent advice. So Uproarious will once again highlight-- trip for those who are convention the video, Stuffed: A World of Good Food and Resolved Times in Britain, which drive be out in November domestic the UK. I highly guide it. And thank you disentangle much.

Pen (01:23:38):

Thank you so luxurious. It was such an evocative conversation. Thank you.

Ben (01:23:41):

Great.